I have expectations of people I interact with, even if it’s just a friendly exchange. Those expectations vary depending on what my relationship is with them. This makes perfect sense, of course. My expectations of my boss, work colleagues, employees, of shop assistants, family members, casual acquaintances, friends etc are all slightly different.
My expectations of men, and particularly submissive men, tend towards something that could easily fall into a D/s dynamic, even if they are not potential partners. That is, if it is more than a casual encounter, if I think I will be interacting with them in more than a passing fashion, if I *like* them, I have expectations of their behaviour that I will communicate and insist upon, otherwise I will choose not to interact with them anymore.
This is not D/s role playing, I do it with vanilla men also, though the flavour of that is a little different.
Examples of things I mean are nothing to do with kink. I will routinely tell men things like:
– Don’t swear excessively around me
– Don’t tell me you will do something and then not do it
– Don’t use emoticons to the nth degree in online communications
– Don’t disappear without notice if we have established regular communication
– Don’t speak to me disrespectfully
This is not surprising, really. I imagine many women, particularly strong, confident women would be the same in stating their expectations, ‘dominant’ or not, and really, many of these things are simply polite behaviour. It’s hardly a revelation.
What *is* a revelation that I came to recently is that of course I only do it when the man I am speaking to is doing those things that irritate me. The polite, the considerate, the thoughtful will never see that side of me because it’s unnecessary.
It led to a very odd exchange where I introduced two submissive friends of mine, and there was some chit chat about how we met (online, via email, which is how I meet most BDSMers).
The first said to the other, with fondness, “Oh my, Ferns was the strictest woman I had ever emailed, she didn’t let me get away with anything, it was a little frightening…”
The other boy looked at me with a confused ‘WTF?!’ as if the first was completely insane.
The first had been a lazy typist, his emails riddled with errors, liberal use of emoticons, incomplete thoughts, tedious to read, but I could tell he was a decent man with a good heart, so I told him how to communicate with me, and insisted (and continued to insist) that he clean up his act if he wanted to continue to speak with me. He did. Bless.
The other was an articulate, thoughtful communicator who I had *never* had that kind of discussion with, so of course the idea of me being ‘strict’ was completely bizarre and foreign to him.
Chalk and cheese.
My revelation is that those who meet my expectations by default are the *least* likely to experience me behaving in an overtly dominant manner in vanilla situations. I am puzzling over that… I have never gotten the dreaded “You’re too nice to be a dominant”, but it does seem a little unfair that those who manage to fit me best are *least* likely to experience little snippets of ‘vanilla’ dominance from me.
*laugh* And no, that is NOT an excuse to behave like a brat (don’t think I don’t hear the wheels clicking and whirring!)!! Nine times out of ten, that will simply lead to me cutting communication… just sayin’…
35 comments
Well shit Miss Ferns :D I don't understand WTF the probz is :( Don't u lik emots :/ how else u know what i mean? =^..^= LOL ROFLMAO PDQ
I do understand what you're saying though. From my perspective being dominated by you would be a rush and I would get it for making mistakes not for approaching you with my best foot forward. I suppose it depends as much on the submissive's nature too. If were the sort of person who likes to provoke a Domme to get the “correction” then it's more likely you'll stop communicating me. But if I prefer to see the Dominants around me content and happy then you continuing the relationship and my knowing it's because you like being around them is more fulfilling.
Personally I don't like to make mistakes and Mistress always tells me I beat myself up too much when I make them so I'd much rather know that the people around me aren't getting annoyed by mistakes I make.
Life is full of these little ironies, isn't it, Miss?
As both a pleaser and a fan of punishment, this trap is very familiar to me. I long to be a perfect little boy, and occasionally be punished like I were a complete brat. I want both experiences to be completely authentic, and they just can't be–one or the other winds up as role play.
@Secretive Slave
”:D I don't understand WTF the probz is :( Don't u lik emots :/ how else u know what i mean? =^..^= LOL ROFLMAO PDQ”
~laugh~ Well spoken!!! (typed) Couldn’t have said it better myself. In fact, my nieces in college could learn a trick or two from you.
@Ferns
“My revelation is that those who meet my expectations by default are the *least* likely to experience me behaving in an overtly dominant manner in vanilla situations”
I have found that most of the time, a Dominant Woman doesn’t have to “behave” in a dominant manner, she just *is*. It’s a matter of presence. … Kinda hard to put into words, but I know it when I see it. Even in a vanilla setting, woman who carries herself with confidence and authority will stand out.
Secretive Slave: “Well shit Miss Ferns… “
*pointedly ignoring this…considers corner time…*
“I suppose it depends as much on the submissive's nature too.”
It does, yes, but in this, I am not talking about bratting, I am talking about genuine mistakes or blundering. I do see that the 'good boy' might get a bit of an “awww, I never got that!' reaction, which seems an understandable response to me. It just seems… unfair. To your 'nature' thing, I can also see the good boy being a bit smug about *not* having had to be spoken to and it does very much depend on his nature.
Etienne, for example, really wants both (greedy boy!)…
I don't do it to 'assert my dominance' in some way, I do it because things genuinely irritate me and the only way to fix it is to have a word to him. Each time I do it (as I said, I am not talking about potential partners, which is different), I know there is a risk he will just go 'hey, you aren't the boss of me, so you can piss off!' and frankly, that would be fair enough. Hasn't happened yet, but could do.
Ferns
Étienne: “As both a pleaser and a fan of punishment, this trap is very familiar to me. I long to be a perfect little boy, and occasionally be punished like I were a complete brat. I want both experiences to be completely authentic, and they just can't be–one or the other winds up as role play.”
*laugh* Yes, I remember you bringing up some very good points in the discussion about punishment. You want both and all of it!
Tell me, though… I understand that you want this from partners, or potential partners… but what about dominant women who are friends or acquaintances? How is it when *they* pull you up for something that irritates them and outline their expectations? Is it then different, I mean they aren't your Domme…
Ferns
slapshot: “I have found that most of the time, a Dominant Woman doesn’t have to “behave” in a dominant manner, she just *is*. It’s a matter of presence.”
I understand what you mean by that (not sure I agree, but that is perhaps a different discussion), but it's a different point from the one I am making.
It's not about *having* to behave in a dominant manner to 'prove dominance' or some such. Having expectations of people I associate with is really how I walk around in the world, we *all* do. I believe that we *all* (dominant, submissive, vanilla) train people around us how to treat us by accepting poor behaviour, correcting it or avoiding those who do it.
The fact that those who don't quite meet my expectations (but who I am still interested in associating with) get *corrected* actually means that they are getting what is an overt level of dominance from me. It might be as simple as “Please don't swear around me, it's unnecessary”. If he can't correct his behaviour (and why should he, I am not *his* Domme), I will then avoid him.
For a vanilla man, this type of correction is NOT something that will give him a little rush of goodness. For a submissive man of a certain type, it might well give them that, while the submissive boy over *there* who never swears gets nothing of me asserting my dominance. Pffftt… no fair!
In thinking about it, I am not sure how big the percentage is of those who would get a little submissive thrill out of that type of correction… 50%? More? Less?
Out of curiosity, if you were corrected, would you get a little subbie tingle out of it (I am talking about a friendly relationship, not potential partners and not *really* close friends)? If you were the good boy, would you feel happy that you hadn't needed it, or a little envious that 'he' got it and you didn't?
Ferns
Miss Ferns: “Out of curiosity, if you were corrected, would you get a little subbie tingle out of it (I am talking about a friendly relationship, not potential partners and not *really* close friends)? If you were the good boy, would you feel happy that you hadn't needed it, or a little envious that 'he' got it and you didn't?”
My knee-jerk thought was, 'Bah! Yes, I'm always polite and this is indeed unfair!' But, your example put the lie to that. A “Please don't swear, it's unnecessary” wouldn't feel dommy to me. For best effect it'd have to be just 'Don't swear'. The former sounds vanilla, to my ear.
Perhaps what's important is that, said either way, I probably wouldn't swear again.
I swear more when conversing with some people than I do with others. I guess I assume that some people have 'gentler sensitivities' than others and adapt to the former accordingly (even if they do assault my own ears with their vicious use of that satanic Americanism, 'gotten').
Sir Puppington Lothian.
Sir Puppington Lothian.
Sir Puppington Lothian.
Whoops – no idea why my name appeared in triplicate.
Ferns,
I do not see what you are doing as a Domme thing. I see it as an everyday thing that assertive women of all stripes do. Assertive woman are probably attractive to a sub personality in general and commanding ones more particularly so.
robert
“Don't speak to me disrespectfully”
Where's the fun in that?
“Out of curiosity, if you were corrected, would you get a little subbie tingle out of it (I am talking about a friendly relationship, not potential partners and not *really* close friends)?”
I don't get a subbie tingle when corrected by friends although I *do* feel mt ears getting red from embarrassment. I would just as soon not need correction at all and certainly feel no envy when someone else gets it.
Of course, it is better to have something I am doing wrong brought to my attention so I can work on it rather than living in ignorance.
“*pointedly ignoring this…considers corner time…*”
Understand that by the time I leave any corner I have written 3 more programs in my head :P
This seems like socialization of an insensitive or clueless man to your needs/wants/desires. Men who are sensitive and “clued in” to what a Dominant woman needs/wants/desires/expects in a social interaction without being tediously coached are the sure bet. They are observant, polite and, in my opinion, naturally take to being submissive. The ones who need excessive coaching and correcting are really stuck at a simplistic level if they can't figure out how to outwardly modify their behavior and be submissive. I think correcting someone all the time would get annoying.
The tingle, for me, always comes from hearing “good boy.” Correction makes me feel alone, separated from what I love which is Her presence and affection. I know some boys get a thrill out of being punished or disciplined and will consciously misbehave to provoke it, but that seems like cheating in a way.
thanks
Rumiboy
For me, I think the tingle is more basic than seeking/receiving either a correction or a good boy. The tingle was there already.
Just the fact that you have expectations of me. That you have power over me and you use it to shape my behavior. I love that you have expectations of me and I am excited to submit to them. Your requirements are a comforting and satisfying place to be.
puppy: “A “Please don't swear, it's unnecessary” wouldn't feel dommy to me. For best effect it'd have to be just 'Don't swear'. The former sounds vanilla, to my ear.”
It *is* vanilla (I would ask no differently from vanilla men than from submissive men), and I can understand your response in that if it lacks a tone that signals 'D/s' to you, there would be then nothing in it for you.
“Perhaps what's important is that, said either way, I probably wouldn't swear again.”
That's because you are a good puppy! I should of gotten you a treat *laughs uproariously and waits for your puppy head to explode*
Ferns
puppy: I would add to the above that even though I say “It *is* vanilla”, I really don't think I speak to my own submissive any differently in day to day interactions. I never really think about it.
Ferns
puppy: “Whoops – no idea why my name appeared in triplicate. “
Attention-whore-puppy!
Ferns
robert: “I do not see what you are doing as a Domme thing. I see it as an everyday thing that assertive women of all stripes do.”
I agree, it's not a Domme thing, but I am still curious about the impact of it on submissive boys who get or don't get 'corrected' by their Domme friends.
We do hear stories quite frequently from submissive men who *do* get a little thrill when Jane in accounting takes him to task about something.
Ferns
puppy: I keep thinking about your reply, it is a totally vanilla reaction, which really does answer part of my question. It is obviously, I suppose that it depends very much on the type of submissive, how they feel about their dominant friend, and what hits their buttons (duh!)…
I *tend* to think that the 'tingle' would hit more submissives than it would miss, but I am guessing of course.
Ferns
Brids: “Where's the fun in that?”
There's no fun, Brids. Submissives are not allowed to have fun. Ever.
Ferns
slapshot: “I don't get a subbie tingle when corrected by friends although I *do* feel mt ears getting red from embarrassment.”
*smile* Understood, thank you. You do know you have a typo in that response, yes? You should take more care. *smirk*
Ferns
Secretive Slave: “Understand that by the time I leave any corner I have written 3 more programs in my head”
Does one of them make my coffee?! Excellent! If not, don't waste corner time!!
Ferns
Miss Louise: “This seems like socialization of an insensitive or clueless man to your needs/wants/desires.”
It is, yes, though not really about insensitivity or cluelessness necessarily. How would he know my preferences? Add the complexity that he is not my submissive or a potential, he is just a friend, so I have no *right* to his compliance to my preferences and I then have the accept/correct/avoid choice.
“Men who are sensitive and “clued in” to what a Dominant woman needs/wants/desires/expects in a social interaction without being tediously coached are the sure bet.”
I think there are manners (and yes, I would hope everyone has those, regardless of gender or orientation) and there are personal preferences. They are a little different.
I might be the only one of their friends who cares about the use of emoticons in every sentence of an IM or email, and it drives me MAD, I can't bear it, I think it makes the writer seem like a half wit. If I ask him to stop it, and he won't (correction), then I get to avoidance because it really does irritate me.
“They are observant, polite and, in my opinion, naturally take to being submissive. The ones who need excessive coaching and correcting are really stuck at a simplistic level if they can't figure out how to outwardly modify their behavior and be submissive.”
But but… you say 'figure out' as if there is some magic way for my friends to discern my expectations without me telling them. I agree that polite is polite, but my little foibles are my own and having expectations that are not communicated is a fast way to an unhappy friendship, no?
“I think correcting someone all the time would get annoying.”
Now this I totally agree with and I won't do it. My friends are my friends because we have lots in common and lots to talk about, so there is an assumed level of commonality. If I have expectations of them that they are not meeting, they are really very unlikely to be fundamental and ongoing… less 'Stop behaving like a moron' and more like 'Stop saying 'like' all the time, it's giving me the irrits!”
Ferns
Ooh, interesting discussion!
I agree with Étienne here, I long to be a good girl, and I long to be punished for being a bad girl and most of the time it's impossible to combine those things. Sometimes, however, it is: I once played with someone who knew I was a usually a good girl (I love to please), but wanted to humiliate me and therefore made me do things that had a high chance of me failing at them (but were not _impossible_ to do, because that would've not worked). I was good because I tried – and bad because I failed. It was one of the best play experiences I ever had.
Concerning your question, Ferns, about the subbie tingles: for me, it depends entirely on the person. I also feel that certain people have a kind of dominant air about them, while others don't. An acquaintance of mine described it quite nicely once: “The man in him addresses the woman in me perfectly, and the dom in him addresses the sub in me in a perfect way – that's why it works.”
With some dominants, I just don't feel their dominance, even if they try to assert it, while others don't have to act particularly dominant in order to make me feel subbish.
Rumiboy: “The tingle, for me, always comes from hearing “good boy.” Correction makes me feel alone, separated from what I love which is Her presence and affection.”
I take it you are talking here about *your* Domme as opposed to a dominant friend, but I imagine that feeling would extend somewhat into those relationships.
“I know some boys get a thrill out of being punished or disciplined and will consciously misbehave to provoke it, but that seems like cheating in a way.”
*chuckle* Cheating little brats!
Ferns
thanks
Yardbird: “For me, I think the tingle is more basic than seeking/receiving either a correction or a good boy. The tingle was there already.”
This, and the rest of your comment, makes perfect sense with *your* Domme, but with dominant friends also?
“Just the fact that you have expectations of me. That you have power over me and you use it to shape my behavior. I love that you have expectations of me and I am excited to submit to them. Your requirements are a comforting and satisfying place to be.”
*smile* Again, this is a lovely explanation within the context of your relationship with your Domme, but I'm asking about the tingle (or not) from the behaviour of your dominant female friends in correcting you. Consider yourself corrected… pay attention!
This discussion is fun!
Ferns
N: “I agree with Étienne here, I long to be a good girl, and I long to be punished for being a bad girl and most of the time it's impossible to combine those things… It was one of the best play experiences I ever had.”
*smile* Fun story, thank you for sharing it.
“Concerning your question, Ferns, about the subbie tingles: for me, it depends entirely on the person… With some dominants, I just don't feel their dominance, even if they try to assert it, while others don't have to act particularly dominant in order to make me feel subbish.”
*nod nod* This makes perfect wonderful and very simple sense to me… I was thinking of it more from the perspective of 'the submissive's nature' really, but this is of course a key factor, even for friends! *slaps forehead*
Ferns
Fern,
The thrill for me is the need to please and the thrill of seeing my Domme pleased rather being admonished for displeasing.
robert
Miss Ferns: “I should of gotten . . .”
My disappointment in you for saying that is deep, Miss Ferns, and I know that there can be no worse punishment for you than knowing this.
Sir Puppington Lothian.
Miss Ferns: “I *tend* to think that the 'tingle' would hit more submissives than it would miss, but I am guessing of course.”
Serioualy: unless I'm aware that you're *consciously* dominating, I'm not going to feel dominated. I'm going to feel that we're interacting as vanillas. An annoyance at my talking a certain way and a request to stop it, or even an order to stop it, isn't in itself going to press any buttons for me.
I have to know that what a femdom does comes from a certain place in her. If it doesn't, it won't work for me – I won't feel submissive.
Sir Puppington Lothian.
puppy: “My disappointment in you for saying that is deep, Miss Ferns, and I know that there can be no worse punishment for you than knowing this.”
If you consider my childish and enthusiastic glee to be the worst punishment… Then yes… I feel duly punished…
Ferns
puppy: “I have to know that what a femdom does comes from a certain place in her. If it doesn't, it won't work for me – I won't feel submissive.”
*nod* I understand what you mean, though it raises the question of what happens when her femdommery looks and sounds for the most part exactly like her vanilla interactions… I think that is true of me, I don't 'change into a femdom' somehow (in *play* it is different, but in day to day life, I am just me). I expect for you, you would discern where that attention was coming from somehow (femdom or vanilla)… domdar??
We do hear stories all the time (and I have them myself) where she gets a little stern and cranky in a vanilla setting (I keep thinking of this) and it sends a boy with submissive leanings into paroxyms of subbish delight. In a sense, for me, that sub-like feedback *can* make me push a little which then turns it into a kind of D/s flirting… mmmmmm… lovely… *daydreams* Digression.
Unsurprisingly, the responses are across the board, there are any number of factors involved for each individual and for some such as yourself, it's just a 'no'.
I'd still be interested if it would be more 'hit' than 'miss' in general with subbie tingles arising out of 'corrections' from a dominant in non D/s interactions… Obviously that kind of 'how many' question is unanswerable. Perhaps I should ask in my next survey, just for fun.
Ferns
“what about dominant women who are friends or acquaintances? How is it when *they* pull you up for something that irritates them and outline their expectations?”
The only thing that turns it off is if I dislike or disrespect the Lady in question. If she is a stranger or a friend, the same mixture of feelings still applies.
My relationships are not really different in *kind* from one another so much as different in *degree*.
Miss Ferns: “I think that is true of me, I don't 'change into a femdom' somehow (in *play* it is different, but in day to day life, I am just me). I expect for you, you would discern where that attention was coming from somehow (femdom or vanilla)… domdar??”
I'd like to say 'yes' – but I don't think my femdomdar is all that great, to be honest. I guess I'd be looking for some sign that she's enjoying whatever demanding, ordering, instructing (whatever) that she's doing. But I wouldn't rely on that. I'd probably do some sub-signalling.
In other words, I'd flirt. To see what's there and where it might go. And because it's fun, anyway.
Hmmm. Most of all, I'd do that when a woman's in a position of power over me. Yes. Oh yes. ;-)
Sir Puppington Lothian.