If submissive men are all about pleasing the dominant wimmins, how come they aren’t all the most beautiful men they can be? Hmmmm?
How come single submissive men looking for partners don’t all think “I know what will be pleasing to a potential dominant! A fit, strong, hot body! I gotta get me to the gym now now NOW and git me one of those!”
A lot of submissive men ask how they can make themselves more appealing to dominant women and there is often talk of them gaining skills (cooking, cleaning, pedicure, manicure, tea service etc). That’s fine and nice, but seriously, who gets crazy hot with lust over that stuff (actually some women do, but not most, and certainly not me!)? It’s not the sort of thing that inspires desperate hunger and passion.
So, since I am a good samaritan, more free advice to submissive men looking for a partner:
Be fucking sexy and irresistible and as beautiful as you can be. Be the man that makes her want to rip your clothes off, tie you up, make you scream and then ravish you to within an inch of your life!
Yes, I know. I am helpful, as always.
40 comments
Hey, believe me, Ferns, I'm working on it, I'm working on it.
Tom: “Hey, believe me, Ferns, I'm working on it, I'm working on it.”
I know! I've perved the photos… nice work!
I mean… errmm… Are you really?! Good for you!
Ferns
Good advice. I am doing that anyway. I figure that even if I don't meet anyone, at least by the time I die, I'll be in great shape and leave a damn good looking corpse behind.
slapshot: “I am doing that anyway.”
Good on you!! And plus, it just makes you feel better!
“…at least by the time I die, I'll be in great shape and leave a damn good looking corpse behind.”
That will make some necrophiliac very happy (yes, I did have second thoughts about saying that out loud, but it made me laugh!).
Ferns
Chiselled buttocks. I'm surprised you didn't mention chiselled buttocks, Ferns.
XXXXXXX
Anonymous XXXXXXX: “Chiselled buttocks. I'm surprised you didn't mention chiselled buttocks, Ferns.”
You just want me to say the word 'buttocks'! And really, is there any other kind than 'chiselled'?
Ferns
How come single submissive men looking for partners don't all think “I know what will be pleasing to a potential dominant! A fit, strong, hot body! I gotta get me to the gym now now NOW and git me one of those!”
While I can only speak for myself, I have no interest in a domme who wouldn't date me simply because I'm not super physically fit.
While I'd guess it wasn't your intent, this post actually made you come across as kind of shallow.
“That will make some necrophiliac very happy”
Ah yes … FetLife after death.
@Brids: “While I can only speak for myself, I have no interest in a domme who wouldn't date me simply because I'm not super physically fit.”
You are making a huge leap here from 'do it, women will like it' to 'no-one will ever date you if you aren't a Greek god'.
My intent in this is to ask why working to be as beautiful as possible is not a common way for submissive men to make themselves more attractive to dominant women (*especially* if he has a penchant for being sexual prey!). We (dominant women) are asked by submissive men all the time “What can I do to make myself more appealing?”. Everyone suggests all sorts of things – why not this? If (big if!) a man wants to present his best self, if his motivation is to increase his appeal, if he aims to be as pleasing as possible to a potential partner, why is making himself more physically attractive a less valid tool to add to his toolkit than learning how to cook?
(I suspect, actually that it's so politically incorrect that no-one wants to touch it and that's why it's not generally spoken of!)
“While I'd guess it wasn't your intent, this post actually made you come across as kind of shallow.'
… and there it is, of course. As soon as anyone suggests anything to do with physical appearance, whether it's preference or suggestions or anything that isn't the homogenised political correctness of global goodness, someone will call them shallow.
If you don't think that being as attractive as you possibly can (and this is true across the board – physically, emotionally, intellectually…) will increase your chances with women, you are delusional. If you don't want to work on any of those areas, that's fine, but why is working on physical appearance any less valid than working on emotional or intellectual growth?
There are a gazillion factors that make a man attractive to women (for me, most of them are indefinable), but if he looks great with his clothes off, it certainly doesn't hurt! If I'm shallow for suggesting that submissive men get their sexy on because women like it, I am perfectly ok with that.
Ferns
slapshot: “Ah yes … FetLife after death.”
*chuckle* Sometimes reading some of the threads there makes me *wish* I was dead!
Ferns
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Carmenica Diaz: “Couldn't have said it better myself!”
*bows* Thank you!
Ferns
“You are making a huge leap here from 'do it, women will like it' to 'no-one will ever date you if you aren't a Greek god'. “
I admit I jumped a little on that.
“If (big if!) a man wants to present his best self, if his motivation is to increase his appeal, if he aims to be as pleasing as possible to a potential partner, why is making himself more physically attractive a less valid tool to add to his toolkit than learning how to cook?”
Probably because everyone has a different view on what's attractive. Plus, if a domme wants to be the one to cook, she can just cook, no problem but if a domme likes a thin guy with little to no muscle, that's a little harder to change.
If everyone women out there went out and got breast implants so they could please more men, I'd never find a girls chest attractive again.
“As soon as anyone suggests anything to do with physical appearance, whether it's preference or suggestions or anything that isn't the homogenised political correctness of global goodness, someone will call them shallow.”
I guess a bunch of people must have gotten this crazy idea that you should look past peoples looks and focus on who there are and decided to spread that around the world.
“but why is working on physical appearance any less valid than working on emotional or intellectual growth?”
Because at the end of the day no matter how sexy you are you might not be able to sustain a conversation to save your life.
Would you rather be stuck talking to someone who spent all their time looking as pretty as possible or someone who spent all their time improving who they are as a person?
“If I'm shallow for…”
I didn't call you shallow. I said this post made you sound kinda shallow.
Brids: “…stuff…”
Yes Brids, that’s exactly what I said. I want someone who can’t hold a conversation, who will have surgery to make himself look better, who looks pretty and hasn’t a brain in his head, who will never strive to improve himself in any other way ever. You nailed it.
*sigh*
Ferns
I can be non-pc and also honest here, Ferns – because I'm posting this anonymously. Hah!
Yes, I agree. It's peculiar, in a sense, that many men will work on all aspects of themselves to make themselves more attractive – but not their body-shapes.
But to be perhaps even more un-pc than you: I've wondered, nearly all my adult life, why so many women won't do the same. Unlike men, they *will* focus on superficial things – they'll spend vast amounts of energy, time and money on make-up and clothing – but not on carving out their physical shape. Why the mismatch? I've never really got that . . .
An obvious, 'eye roll and sigh' question. But what's unusual about it is that this is the first time I've ever said it in front of female eyes!
XXXXXXX
Anonymous XXXXXXX: “But to be perhaps even more un-pc than you: I've wondered, nearly all my adult life, why so many women won't do the same.”
I am glad you brought this up. I have a few different, and contrasting, views on it.
You and I both know that women have been making themselves beautiful as submissive prey for men for eons. Our entire culture supports it, from our media to our biology. So there are *millions* of women whose prime objective is to be sexually attractive to men, this is why the diet industry makes so much damn money. Of course there will be *some* women who don't buy into that pressure, but women are taught from a very young age that they must be sexually attractive (while not being a slut, of course!), so the pressure to be that is enormous.
Of the millions of *course* not all women will buy into that. Dominant women in particular are going against the grain in many many ways. They do not offer themselves as sexual prey to submissive men. They offer something very different. It makes sense to me that they would not buy into the popular culture view of 'how they should be'. Now I am talking feminist politics here in women railing against everything they have been told they should be. That fits pretty well with a dominant mindset out there in the world (no I will NOT do what you say, no I will NOT be nice and gentle, no I will NOT hold my tongue, no I will not meet your expectations of how a 'nice young lady' should behave or look or interact with her man etc).
Is that 'the truth', no I don't think so, but it still makes sense to me.
As to why *individuals* (male or female) don't work on their bodies, I assume it mostly boils down to 'it's not a priority' for whatever reason. To Brids' point, we should be so evolved that we look past this superficiality, and as a reason for not going there, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint.
Part of my puzzling over why submissive men don't do this (and are not encouraged to do it as a norm) is because many of them are offering themselves as prey, and specifically, sexual prey, so it makes sense to me that they would do what they can to entice that attention.
Ferns
I guess it's this that gets to the heart of it for me, Ferns:
“Part of my puzzling over why submissive men don't do this (and are not encouraged to do it as a norm) is because many of them are offering themselves as prey, and specifically, sexual prey, so it makes sense to me that they would do what they can to entice that attention.”
A man who is offering himself as prey wants to offer *himself* – not something other than himself. He sees a slim, fit man, and thinks, 'That isn't me. I can't offer something that isn't me – and I don't want her to take something that isn't me – that couldn't be me'.
In other words, a person's body is part of their identity – you don't want that, you don't want him. Any man, if he feels that way, is going to say 'OK, I'll do anything to attract a domme – but I won't, I can't do that' (Cue that celebrated chunky, Meatloaf ;-))
I think that's pretty much the basic point behind what feminists have been saying about women for all these years, too . . . .
It's hideously depressing to think in those terms – and I remember that I did think that way myself, once, a decade or so ago and before I first started using a gym. But I think the crucial thing is this: that I did it for myself. Granted, it started off being about attracting a woman, but it slowly changed. Being fit is 'who I am', now.
But there's another little problem that comes as a result of transforming one's body. This is that you adopt certain standards for yourself in order to get fit – and you tend to apply them when choosing a partner. I know of a few very fit men who like chubby women, but not many. On the other hand, I've met quite a few chubby femdoms. So, the old saying applies: 'Careful of what you wish for . . . .'
XXXXXXX
As a femme sub I work out regularly as I enjoy being able to do specific things with my body, however,I am predominantly attracted to larger women. I appreciate beautiful curves.I think it just comes down to individual tastes.
Anonymous XXXXXXX: “A man who is offering himself as prey wants to offer *himself* – not something other than himself… In other words, a person's body is part of their identity – you don't want that, you don't want him. “
See, this doesn't work for me as an argument. Not at all. It implies that no-one is capable of improving themselves, ever, at all, because 'this is who I am'. It's rubbish!
The extreme of this (yes, I know it's silly, but bear with me) is like saying “I am an ignorant, uninformed, uninteresting, unskilled, overweight person… this is *me*, this is *who I am*…take it or leave it!”
Yeah, good luck with that!
My point is this: Submissive men (maybe not you personally, but many and often) ask how they can make themselves more appealing. They get scads of advice that never NEVER (that I have seen) includes “Make yourself sex on legs!”
Why not? It's a perfectly valid way to increase your appeal.
The 'why not', I'm guessing, is because it is unacceptable to comment on body for all sorts of political and social reasons. It makes people defensive in a way that few other things do.
“I think that's pretty much the basic point behind what feminists have been saying about women for all these years, too . . . .”
True. And this *is* a total reversal of that and completely 'wrong' in that sense. But you know what? My advice stands. I think it's good advice based on a logical premise.
“I know of a few very fit men who like chubby women, but not many. On the other hand, I've met quite a few chubby femdoms. So, the old saying applies: 'Careful of what you wish for . . . .'”
Meh. If someone doesn't like x (doesn't matter what it is), I don't think that changing themselves will suddenly transform their desires. I know plenty of fit men who love big women.
I also know of plenty of women who will accept big men… but you know what? It's rarely a *preference*. If big men were sought after in a significant way by women, don't you think we would be seeing a BBM fetish or a 'bear' or ‘chub’ fetish (like in the gay community) from women? I haven't seen it, have you? Just sayin’.
Ferns
Dammit, Ferns, you're having a great discussion over in the living room, and I'm in the kitchen askign about shoes.
Sheesh.
Anyway, I can be as un-pc as I want, even not posting anonymously.
This bit struck me:
Would you rather be stuck talking to someone who spent all their time looking as pretty as possible or someone who spent all their time improving who they are as a person?
The problem with arguments like this is that one assumes it's an either/or situation. This is kind of like those “you're stranded on a deserted isle” questions; but unlike those hypothetical situations, in real life you have many more options.
Fern's, you're absolutely correct – and this applies not just to BDSM dating, but to the more vanilla world, as well.
The fact is, people tend to be attracted to those who meet a culturally approved physical standard. Our tastes for what those standards are have gone back and forth over the years, but those people who fall within those standards have a higher chance of finding a partner. It's not because everyone is shallow; it's simply that we like what we like. And it's perfectly okay to like what you like.
However, working on staying within those standards doesn't mean that everything else has to slide. I can think of a number of women bloggers who are physically attractive and who seem to be sensitive and intelligent. Hell, I even know people like that in real life!
20 odd years ago, I was newly divorced from my starter marriage (you know, the one that only lasts a couple of years because you were both young and stoopid). While I was not out of shape, I invested in a small home gym and workout out every day. I bought nice, stylish clothes – which I wore to the college classes that I attended at night after work. This being the pre-internet days, I made a point to read a lot on a variety of subjects.
And of course, I've always been a good cook. FTW!
Yes, I could have spent less time working out and more time reading. But I also knew that it would improve my odds on the dating market if I worked on as many facets of myself as possible. This has nothing to do with being shallow; naturally I would not want to date somebody only interested in my looks (unless it were Ferns, who wasn't around then, dammit), but is simply a matter of being aware of how human nature works.
Not that it mattered in the end; I keep insisting that Mrs. Edge married me because I cooked better than she did.
Tom: “Dammit, Ferns, you're having a great discussion over in the living room, and I'm in the kitchen askign about shoes.”
Somebody’s got to be in the kitchen, otherwise who’s doing the cooking? (I’ll give you a hint, it’s not me!)
“Fern's, you're absolutely correct – and this applies not just to BDSM dating, but to the more vanilla world, as well. “
It does, yes. The reason I think it’s even *more* pertinent for submissive men is the assumption/belief/hope that submissive men want to be pleasing to their (potential) partners. They certainly ask about how they can improve their chances and seek ways to do it and this is one of them (albeit one that nobody dares speak its name…).
I wonder if one of the reasons that no-one wants to say it out loud (other than the complete un-PC-ness of it) is because dominant women often fight to counter the expectation from submissive men that it’s all about sex and saying ‘Get your sexy on’ doesn’t achieve that particularly well…
“However, working on staying within those standards doesn't mean that everything else has to slide… But I also knew that it would improve my odds on the dating market if I worked on as many facets of myself as possible.”
This. Of course! It’s not rocket science! Add another string to your bow (and other rah rah clichés here…)! Most women will not *ever* choose a man because of his body, but of course it’s a boon if she doesn’t choose him *despite* it!
“I can think of a number of women bloggers who are physically attractive and who seem to be sensitive and intelligent.”
Aww thanks (yes yes, I *am* totally ignoring the fact that all you have seen of me is my shoes!… pfffttt… details…).
“…naturally I would not want to date somebody only interested in my looks (unless it were Ferns, who wasn't around then, dammit)”
Lucky for me! I hear Mrs Edge has a mean left hook and knows people who know people…!
“Not that it mattered in the end; I keep insisting that Mrs. Edge married me because I cooked better than she did.”
You know, if that were my criteria, I could walk out of my door, point to any man who doesn’t live with his mother, and I would be done! Hurrah!
Ferns
I'm glad a Domme finally came out and said this!
Also…
My intent in this is to ask why working to be as beautiful as possible is not a common way for submissive men to make themselves more attractive to dominant women
Because that would take effort, and the vast majority of submissive guys believe that they are entitled to be fawned over by every Domme they come in contact with…
I couldn't agree more with the original post here. It has nothing to do with being shallow. If your body isn't a priority to you, that's okay–but in that case, the answer to the question “Why aren't women falling over themselves to torment me?” is, “Most women do not share your priorities.”
That is, if you're consciously deciding to not keep yourself in tip-top shape, you really should not feel entitled to affection from every woman you see, because it's overwhelmingly likely that she'd be more likely to want you if you were sexier. It's not fair (because sexiness comes easier to some people), but it's the truth.
Submissive Dude: “I'm glad a Domme finally came out and said this!”
It seems self evident to me, but yes, no-one seems to dare speak of it. You're welcome.
“Because that would take effort…”
This is true and has not been touched on yet here. It *would* take effort, and it is always easier to moan about not finding someone than to make any effort at all (not just in this, but in the wider sense) to proactively improve yourself.
“… the vast majority of submissive guys believe that they are entitled to be fawned over by every Domme they come in contact with…”
Do they believe that? That has not been my experience, my experience is that they are struggling with finding a partner, that they are worried about not being good enough, that they (many of them) genuinely *want* to strive to be more appealing. I've certainly not struck the expectation that I would fawn over them.
“That is, if you're consciously deciding to not keep yourself in tip-top shape, you really should not feel entitled to affection from every woman you see, because it's overwhelmingly likely that she'd be more likely to want you if you were sexier.”
Okay, well I don’t think you should ‘feel entitled to affection from every woman you see’ regardless of the state of your body! If someone does have a great body, he would walk around sorely disappointed when he finds that it doesn’t magically translate into affection from women. I suspect (hope!), though, that’s not really what you meant.
There are a million factors that make a man sexy (I mentioned before, that for me, most of them are indefinable). Being fit and looking great naked is about adding another weapon to the arsenal. I will *never* choose a man because of his body, but wow, it’s a bonus if a man who I click with has made the effort to make himself as beautiful as he can be. It makes my fingers itch just thinking about it.
It is not just the aesthetics; it demonstrates discipline, dedication, pride in himself… all of those good things. For me, it’s part of a very attractive “I want to be the best I can be” mindset. Oh, and plus, it's just hot!
Ferns
I'm not a submissive man but a woman, and I've recently met the Domme of my dreams … I can only see her every few weeks but I'm using that time to get in better shape so I can match up to her perfect body ;) so I totally agree with you there … she is gorgeous, why wouldn't I want to match up to that?
EVEN THOUGH she likes me and told me she finds me attractive, I STILL work on looking better for her and I also believe that while in a relationship (mine's not a relationship … yet?) one should maintain ones looks. I'm not talking about going to bed with makeup etc, but I daresay that hygiene and a fit body are something that simply _keep_ you interesting.
To add something to the discussion here, I also believe that humans are superficial and there is no use denying it. All that crap about inner values etc … of course inner values are important in a relationship, however, if you aren't attracted to someone you probably won't even get so far as to even see that person in *that* way or even talk to them.
In the end, it's all about DNA, I s'ppose.
See, I can't agree that it's shallow or superficial to enjoy somebody's appearance. It's shallow if it's the *only* facet that you care about, but most people look for a much wider range.
And really, when was the last time you heard that it was “shallow” to try to find somebody who was into the same hobby as you, or the same political party, or same religion? If a geeky guy wants to date a woman who knows, oh, let's pick a random example, that Star Trek isn't a tv series anymore , that's not shallow, that's considered to be looking for someone with shared interests. We usually consider this to be a success vector wrt relationships.
Again, it comes down to several things.
We like what we like.
People are different.
There's no accounting for tastes.
Why do we feel compelled to make an issue of this?
N: “I've recently met the Domme of my dreams …”
Oh, congratulations!! Exciting!
“EVEN THOUGH she likes me and told me she finds me attractive, I STILL work on looking better for her…”
This makes perfect sense, you want to be (more) pleasing to her…
“…I also believe that humans are superficial and there is no use denying it.”
We are attracted to what we are attracted to – I know everyone thinks it's somehow superficial, but it's no different to being attracted to someone's sense of humour or their intellect (and both of those can be improved also!). I have to say that one of the advantages of the internet is that you often get to see people from the inside first. Truthfully, I love that.
Ferns
Tom: “See, I can't agree that it's shallow or superficial to enjoy somebody's appearance. It's shallow if it's the *only* facet that you care about, but most people look for a much wider range.”
*nod nod and more nodding*
“Why do we feel compelled to make an issue of this?”
Because it raises hackles, a gazillion of them, it somehow hits insecurities right where they live, people immediately go to the extreme of assuming it's the only thing you care about as soon as you mention it, and besides, Tom, it makes you A Bad Person ™.
I also think it's frigging hard work and hell, it's *much* easier to call someone else shallow and not worthy of your time than it is to actually do a bunch of work to improve yourself.
In the end, it's still a valid piece of advice… It's not going hurt your chances to be the best you can be… it's that simple.
Ferns
If only everybody was reading this…
jane: “If only everybody was reading this…”
Reading, paying attention, DOING… heh…
Ferns
Came to the conclusion on my own sometime back, in response to a friend of mine talking about how hot all the gay male slaves looked at a leather event she had attended.
From that point on, my workouts became a kind of penance or gift for some still unknown potential suitor. Eroticizing the pain from strength training happened at some point, and made my post-workout cool down
euphoric.
Later on, the same domme (see above) made a lewd comment about me, and I totally got off on being objectified by her. This created the positive feedback loop that keeps me going to the gym to this day.
iggy
iggy: “From that point on, my workouts became a kind of penance or gift for some still unknown potential suitor.”
Perfect attitude! I'm sure your partner is grateful for it, and thank you for the pictures – I'd say the work paid off… not that I perved or anything…
Ferns
Funny I do think of how I want to look to my future partner now and yes you partly helped inspire that. So I am trying. It is rough at times when my mind is just somewhere else but I push through…although I have no intentions of doing the becoming a male thing so hopefully 2/3 isn’t bad right? lol
Respectfully,
mysticlez218
*smile* I’m glad I helped to inspire it in some way, and I hear you on how hard it is. I would NEVER pretend it was easy.
And yes, 2/3 ain’t bad…
Ferns
Pumping iron doesn’t seem very submissive.
Do you want a he-man who can break you in two as a sub-in-name-only who can change his mind at any moment and physically overpower you? Maybe you do, sounds like a potent (npi) power-exchange fantasy.
But, yeah, as a young subbie virgin I starved myself and walked everywhere and took eccentric pains with my appearance in the vain hope that merely being attractive in some sweet, vulnerable, passive way would draw dominant attention.
It did.
From older gay men.
There are so many wrong-headed assumptions in your comment that I just… can’t.
If your view of relationships is that if a man is stronger, he might “change his mind at any moment and physically overpower you” (i.e. he might violate your consent, assault or rape you), you have a really fucked up attitude towards women, a really fucked up view of relationships, and a really fucked up view of men.
If the only reason you don’t physically overpower a woman you’re with is because you’re so physically weak that you literally can’t, you need to sort that shit out before you get near any woman ever.
JFC.
Ferns
Thank you for replying to a comment on such an old post. Often i feel leaving a late comment is just shouting into the void.
i’m sorry i expressed myself so badly in the first two sentences, there.
Does any else yearn to be disciplined and humiliated in tight jeans, while going shirtless to show off my physique and hair? Especially refers to getting spanked or verbally
Humiliated.
*eyeroll*
Ferns